INT: Well why don't we talk about your apprenticeship; your observation period at RKO [RKO Pictures]. 
JD: Well, I was hired to be an observer, which means you stand and watch and supposedly learn. I watched, but I didn't learn anything because I was just overwhelmed by Hitchcock [Alfred Hitchcock] and frightened by him, and he tortured me some, because I would really hide back in a corner somewhere while he was filming. This was MR. SMITH. [INT: MR. & MRS. SMITH.] MR. & MRS--with Carole Lombard and--[INT: Robert Montgomery.] Robert Montgomery, yes. And I would stand in the corner, hiding, and after each take, he would torture me and said, “It's alright for you?” I would hide, and he'd say, “Is it alright for me to print this?” So he tortured me all through the film that way, and he had another little amusement. I don't know why he had them in his hands or how they got there. There were bowls of water, sometimes little fishes in it, and he would be looking this way and throw it to you this way. I caught onto that quickly. He was very nice. I learned nothing. I was just too intimidated. He took me to lunch sometimes and talked to me about lenses. I didn't know what language that was. But at the end of our relationship we said, “Alright, now go ahead. Go make a film, but never work with children, animals, or Charles Laughton.” That was his advice. Sometime later, I did work with a child and a goat and Charles Laughton. And we exchanged telegrams. They were very funny. Ask me another question now? [INT: Those were all in the same picture, by the way. CANTERVILLE GHOST [THE CANTERVILLE GHOST]? Laughton, Margaret O'Brien--] You would mention the name of it, yes.

INT: Growing up, you admired certain filmmakers, I know. Who were they? People you liked to watch?
JD: Well they're very strange. Growing up, I watched a lot of the UFA [Universum Film AG] films. And was most impressed, and particularly by Conrad Veidt, and thereby, as it hangs an anecdote. My first film; no titles, remember, I was brought to the office to meet Conrad Veidt who was going to be the star of the film. And I sat down and he came in towering and beautiful, and I stood up to be introduced, and the executive said, “This is your Director.” And he looked down at me with those gray eyes and said, “No.” He said it in German. “Nein,” and walked out. That was my meeting with Conrad Veidt. Later we became friends.

INT: You also--you were a big Chaplin [Charlie Chaplin] person, yeah?
JD: I am a Chaplin adorer and lover. Yesterday a friend of mine gave me cassettes to look at of outtakes, things he never used, or later developed. And he's my number one man.

INT: You mentioned your first film--that was your first feature, but actually you made a short at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer] called TELL-TALE--
JD: THE TELL-TALE HEART, the Edgar Allan Poe story, I made that. Oh, that was--after I watched and observed at RKO [RKO Pictures], they said, “Okay, six months, and that's enough,” and they fired me, which made absolutely no sense to me because they had been paying me this huge salary to watch. 250 bucks a week in the 1930s. And they said, “That's all.” It was strange. And then I was out of a job and just about to get back to New York when my agent talked to MGM, I guess it was Mayer [Louis B. Mayer], to let me make a short and if they liked the short, they would give me a job. And I tell this story many times and enjoy telling it each time. I made the short and now thinking they're gonna see it the next day, or the next week, or the next month. But no, one had to wait until the racetrack season was over. And they still didn't see it. But it happened that local theatre was--didn't get its newsreel. Remember in those days, we had newsreels. And he said, “Send me the newsreel.” I said, “I haven't got any.” “Send me something.” And they sent THE TELL-TALE HEART. And strangely, somebody saw, who wrote a mini-critic, I think it was, and he said, “This is wonderful.” It was the silliest thing. But, he liked it. And then I waited another month or so until they said, “Alright, we'll give you a job.” That was MGM.

INT: But what did--you had been in the theatre. What made you want to--did you want to become a film Director?
JD: I had no idea becoming a film Director. I used to love and watch movies but I had done a play and also had done something unsigned in the marvelous Federal Theatre Project, which was one of the great, great theater institutions ever, where they did wonderful, wonderful things. And one of their creations was the living newspaper where they based their productions on what was happening in America and in New York. And a Producer whose name, be blessed, Martin Gabel said, “I would like to make a living newspaper theater on Broadway,” which was very daring. And it was a play called the MEDICINE SHOW. Very hot, social stuff about the lack of health insurance. Big towns and cities that had no hospitals and so forth. Well as you can imagine, there are not many laughs in this. But after that they came and said, “You want to go to Hollywood?” And they said, “We will give you 250 dollars a week.” Well that was huge sum at the time. So I went to Hollywood. And that was it.

INT: But you had never entertained thoughts of being a film Director before? It just happened?
JD: Truth is, I didn't entertain thoughts of being a film Director until I was released from that MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer] contract, which lasted five years--or it was a seven year contract. You know, we all know about that. They were called the slave contracts at the time. But I got out in five. [INT: So you really didn't--you dismiss your work at MGM, basically?] I have truly, truly effaced most of it from my memory. [INT: And--] And that's the way it shall be.

INT: So you really feel you became a Director with the Hellinger [Mark Hellinger] pictures, the films that you made with Mark Hellinger: BRUTE FORCE and NAKED CITY [THE NAKED CITY].
JD: Yes, that was the beginnings of my saying, “Alright, now think of what you're doing and try to be a Director” And with Mark Hellinger, there was a freedom that I didn't know at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer]. At MGM they would look at me strangely if they gave me a script and I said, “I want to read it.” At MGM--I don't know how much of it is my fault, but I was never discouraged. I never met the Editor. Never. And many of the guys who wrote the script, I never met. It was so strange and so unworldly and un-cinema-like. But that was it. That began to change working with Hellinger.

INT: So with Hellinger [Mark Hellinger] had a hand in many more aspects. Editing. Even the opinion on the music, perhaps?
JD: Hellinger ran a pretty tight ship, but he trusted the people he worked with. He had--I had a tough time with him because I wanted Bill Daniels [William H. Daniels], the great Bill Daniels, to be my photographer and he said, “No, that's impossible,” because Bill had gone through a long alcoholic period and he said absolutely no to this. But I made a secret meeting with Daniels, whom I adored, and asked him, “Bill, is there any reason we cannot make this film?” And after a long, long pause he said, “There is no reason.” And to my knowledge and to the knowledge of the detectives who were following him through BRUTE FORCE and NAKED CITY, he never took another drink again. And got the Oscar for NAKED CITY and just took off again.

INT: And you also started working on the scripts? You're not credited on those two movies [NAKED CITY and BRUTE FORCE], but did you work on them?
JD: I made little contributions, and particularly a good deal of NAKED CITY was improvised. But, no. I can't say that I really took part in the writing of the scripts. [INT: So most of your later films, you were either the sole screenwriter or collaborator beginning with which picture?] Beginning with, well this was France. Beginning with RIFIFI [DU RIFIFI CHEZ LE HOMMES]. And from then on, I've done them all, for better or worse. [INT: You just kind of jumped right in and started writing a script? You had no other experience?] I wanted to make the picture and make the picture that I wanted to make.

INT: Well here's a que--it says, “How do you work on a script?” Do you know how to explain that?
JD: Well I'll tell you. You get up early in the morning, you have your coffee and you make yourself clean, and you take a pen. Pay no attention to typewriters or anything like that. And friends from New York send you yellow legal pads and so you sit down and you write the scripts. [INT: Nobody's gonna answer like that.] [Laughter]

INT: Okay. What about adapting other people's work? What do you look for in a story? What's a good story to you?
JD: A good story to me? Of course rule number one, as Brecht [Bertolt Brecht] himself said, should be entertain--it should be entertaining. And some--I made some mistakes about choices there. But I did want film to have something to say. This was after RIFIFI [DU RIFIFI CHEZ LE HOMMES] where just--just a job. And if the people were interesting. Situation and context. I didn't look further.

INT: I suppose at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer] you had no say in the casting either, but then you had a bit. Were you--you were your own Casting Director I take it? [JD: Yes.] From independent days on.
JD: From RIFIFI [DU RIFIFI CHEZ LE HOMMES] on. [INT: So how do you choose your Actors?] I remember them. Or there are people that I--I sometimes see them as I'm writing. I visualize them. I meet them. When there is something to be seen, their past work, I do. But truly I think, because you see a number of people, that I think I cast by the contact that is established at the meeting. It sounds strange but it's something like that. I'd say, “Yeah, he's good. He's right for this. I like him. He pleases me.” Goes no further, no deeper.

INT: Well how do you cast yourself? In a meeting like this?
JD: I never cast myself. I always wanted to outcast myself. Every time I played a film, except one, was I either didn't have the money to pay an Actor. I've never made a big--never a big budget film. Never. And an Actor who had been signed for some reason didn't get his contract when he was called to say, “You're shooting on Monday.” He said, “No, I'm working in Rome Monday. I never got a contract.” And so I filled in, but not happily. I worked in NEVER ON SUNDAY. I begged for money to get an Actor, a star, or even a semi-star. But they wouldn't give me money for that. And out of desperation, because the budget was so tiny, I found an Actor who I didn't have to pay, and that was me. So there I went.

INT: What is your experience working with stars? Is that always a problem? Working with stars?
JD: Actually, no. First of all, I appreciate stars and I do not believe the myth that they got there for other reasons except for their own talent or personality. I've had good experiences and friendly experiences working with stars, except one whose name I shall not mention. One in my whole life. But I have a truly very sincere respect for Actors. I think they're wonderful, creative people, and important. In theatre and in movies. They are artists. And of course America's had so many wonderful ones. Wonderful. As in Europe, but the big stars were here.

INT: We've never talked about John Wayne, who you directed early in his star career. Is there anything memorable about him?
JD: Yes. I was decided not to like him because his politics, supposedly, were so far right. Later I've come to understand I thought he was just a nationalist. American. But, he was disciplined. He was courteous. He was ready. He was on time. As professional a guy as I've ever worked with. I got to like him.

INT: One other who became big, also. Lucille Ball you directed in one film [TWO SMART PEOPLE] at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer]. Anything--
JD: You're taking me back to that past. I don't remember what the film was about. I remember she was miscast, but I remember that she was delicious company and fun. And it was--before yesterday, I think. Or maybe in yesterday's Sunday Times, I read about her and I LOVE LUCY, and I was an I LOVE LUCY fan. I thought she was marvelous. I liked her very much. [INT: And it was shot by Karl Freund who shot on METROPOLIS.] How about that? Karl Freund and Lucille Ball.

INT: You worked a lot with a lot of great character players, including yourself, I might add, but--
JD: A character, yeah. Name some. Help me. [INT: Well, Akim Tamiroff.] Akim Tamiroff, to me, was one of the great Actors. Really important, wonderful Actor. I worked with him in TOPKAPI and it was delicious, and the way the man prepared, the way the man studied, he would walk around Istanbul muttering his part. Didn't mind anybody looking at him strangely. Now there's a wonderful story about Tamiroff, and I want to believe it's true. He was one of the big important Actors of Europe, but like many of them, when they came here, he was unknown. Rouben Mamoulian knew him and appreciated him. And Akim came, said, “Hey, a job. A day. Two days. Anything.” He said, “I've got no part for you.” And he said, “Not even a day?” He said, “I can't offer you this. A guy comes in and asks what Garbo [Greta Garbo] wants for breakfast in QUEEN CHRISTINA. And he said, “What does she want for breakfast?” If I remember this well, he said, “Tea.” He said, “Do you mind if instead of her ordering tea she should order chocolate?” They said, “Why?” He said, “Because I think I can say chocolate funny.” And as I remember, he said, “Chocolate? [makes high pitched voice]” Got a big laugh, and his career took off from there. [INT: But he is in QUEEN CHRISTINA.] Wonderful Actor.

INT: This is a--a screen test can--they're asking whether you use screen tests for Actors or locations. First of all, let's talk about your use of locations starting with, I guess with the Hellinger [Mark Hellinger] films. [JD: Yes.] All your films that are on location. How do you choose your location? By screen tests?
JD: I never made a screen test of a location. Sometimes, even rarely, I would make photographs. Almost never. But I would walk and walk and walk and I walked many cities in which I made films, and I would say, “Well I'll shoot this here and I'll shoot this there.” And just by walking the cities, which I did. [INT: You did make--I know you made screen tests of Actors at MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer], at least.] I made one screen test. Mickey Rooney brought his new bride to MGM and it was the most beautiful creature that ever walked. It was Ava Gardner. She was breathtakingly beautiful, but she spoke with a drawl. You couldn't understand what she was saying. And they made a number of screen tests with her, and it didn't work. And Louis B. Mayer saying, “Well I'll get a guy from the theatre.” He believed she was going to be a star. He pronounced it on-site. He had a nose for that, the bastard. Oh, that gentleman. And I did a screen test with her, and it was a great experience 'cause I decided to make it without any text. And I think I told my friend Bruce Goldstein this, that I remember--I don't know if you know a Soviet Director's name is Pudovkin [Vsevolod Pudovkin], who is a giant, and a film he made called STORM OVER ASIA. I still remember the shot. There was some merchant or buyer who looked with astonishment and appreciation of a fur coat or cap or something, and these were not Actors. And later I met Pudovkin at the Cannes Film Festival. Translated for him and this whole thing. And I talked about that shot. And the story is this. It was some peasant and they asked to be in the film, and he wanted this shot of amazement, and he took a guy behind the camera, and he had him juggle. And the man was watching this. That's it. That was the shot. And remembering that, I used similar techniques in making a silent test of Ava. And they all thought it was wonderful and she went on from there. [INT: Silent?] Silent. Not a word. But she had such a heavy Southern drawl, it was impossible. They have made a number of tests that just didn't work. And then she did some bit parts and finally became Ava Gardner. [INT: She actually has big parts in your movies at MGM. We discovered this the other day.] You--yes. Well you'll tell me about it later.

INT: But you shot a test for Zanuck [Darryl Zanuck] in London when you were shooting NIGHT AND THE CITY.
JD: Yes! I went to the theater and saw THE LADY'S NOT FOR BURNING. And there was a young guy in there who was wonderful. His name was Richard Burton. And I felt very much indebted to Zanuck for a number of reasons, and I did what I usually don't like to do. I rang him and said, “Hey, I've got a star for you,” because they sign them to these long contracts. And he said, “Make a test, quickly. Just an image test. Silent.” And I did, and I sent it to him, and he called me on the telephone saying, “You idiot. How do you think a guy with skin like that can be a star?” Richard Burton. [INT: He did sign him four or five years later, though.] He sure did.

INT: Well, I don't think you're that interested in budget. You're not too interested. Or are you? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be--
JD: Budgets? I'll tell you what, I am interested in budgets. I think that something wrong in the economics of the Hollywood system. The budgets that are so enormous, and I try to figure it out because I see the end titles and they go on forever. I see hundreds and hundreds of people working on the same film. I don't think I remember never in Europe having more than a crew of 35. And I thought to myself that if they didn't use so many people in these crews, there would be much more investment for lesser budget films. And it would be economically more interesting. But no, they--I don't--I did come back to America to make one film called UP TIGHT! and I suddenly ran across this huge crew, at that time. This would be in '68 [1968]. There are about 90 people. And actually, because we had to run it around a lot, I would say to half of them, “Stay in the hotel,” because they just slowed you down in the movement. And I really think it's pure--it's not good economy. I think they would develop more Actors and stars which they had invested in lesser budget pictures, and economically it would be very productive. I don't understand why there are so many people in a crew.

INT: Well this goes back to something else. Location shooting. You were a pioneer in shooting entirely on location. At least in the sound era. You managed these great shots. Very ambitious shots using the Williamsburg Bridge with a minimal crew. This is before the days of vans and catering and...
JD: This was in 1947. NAKED CITY [THE NAKED CITY]. We had everything we needed. We didn't need the huge crews. I don't--I just don't know why, and I don't know what they do because they're so many. [INT: How big was your crew on NAKED CITY?] I can't tell you now because it's so long ago, but I don't think it was more than 35, 40 people. I may be wrong, but it can't be far wrong. [INT: Did you have the police cooperating?] Yes indeed. They were very, very helpful. And they would help us even with managing huge crowds which came to see the shooting. We couldn't stop them. And we had to adapt all kinds of techniques to distract those people, get them to look elsewhere. But the police were wonderful. [INT: What was one of those techniques?] I carried with me, all through the film, a newspaper kiosk. I would set them down and hide the camera there. I had a florist wagon which you could see through, but you couldn't see me or the camera. But the most useful one of all was an Actor who was not cast in the film. And he was armed with an American flag and a ladder. And when we would get to a place to shoot, the people were already there. They used to call the hotels where the stars were staying and find out where they would go. And there were sometimes hundreds and hundreds of people and the police couldn't do much with them. And my fellow Actor, about 50 yards away or 100 yards away would mount his ladder and wave his flag, and began to spout the most dramatic political talk, and the people would run to him and I would get my shots. Those were the three main techniques. [INT: A young assistant named Allen Funt. Created a whole TV show about him.]

INT: So how did you prepare yourself before the day of shooting? Did you ever storyboard or do anything like that?
JD: My preparation was a strong cup of coffee in the morning. No, I didn't use storyboard. No, I know Hitch [Alfred Hitchcock] did. He did it wonderfully, but I'm one of those improviser guys. I don't usually come with fixed ideas. I know vaguely what sequence I'm gonna shoot a number of things, but let it happen on the set with the Actors. [INT: But you have to work closely with the Production Manager, people like that, to know the sequence. It's all organized.] No, I knew that by reading the script. I knew what we would shoot tomorrow, but it was--I would say, “Tomorrow we begin with this. The first shot in the morning.” But that's about it.

INT: You began in the theatre, so were you more involved in--with the Actors than the filmmaking? Or do you think it was balanced?
JD: At the beginning, I was involved with nothing. I just didn't know what I was doing. But later, the great joy was contact and friendship, and close work with the Actor. I have great appreciation for them. And the wonderful, wonderful friendships that evolved from this. And as a matter of fact, the encouragement to write the guy into the next film I would do. As I did with the crew. I began working in France in 1954 and then made a series of films after that, almost always with the same crew, and wherever I could, the same Actors, when that was right. [INT: You worked with that crew for about twen--] Oh, a lot of films. [INT: 15, 20 years, right?] Yeah.

INT: If you're not getting what you want, what do you do?
JD: Say that again? [INT: If you're not getting what you want, what do you do?] I say dirty words. [INT: This is not one of my questions, by the way.] What do I do about what? On the--In filming, you mean? Or what? [INT: I think it has to do with either the Actors, or it could be anything, I guess. It could be perhaps the way the set is lit or how the music is going. Well there's a great example with RAFIFI [DU RIFIFI CHEZ LE HOMMES], with the music.] JD: Well this is a story I've told again and again 'cause I appreciate the man who wrote the music for the film, whose name is Georges Auric. He was one of the, what they call “The French Six.” Marvelous guy. Big, big talent. And he said, “I'm looking forward to writing music for the robbery sequence,” which, you might remember, is about 30 minutes long. And I said, “I don't want any music.” He said, “You're mad! You're mad!” And my Producer said--he agreed that I was mad. And he said, “Look. I'm going to write this music to protect you. You know, you can't do that!” And when the film was all done, I called Auric and I said, “I'm gonna show you the film with music, and without music. And you will tell me your opinion.” And I ran the film for him and he said, immediately, "Music out,” which I appreciated.

INT: Again, with Actors. There was something about rehearsals. Oh yeah. Did you rehearse the Actors? Take a drink of water.
JD: Look, I know that there's a big--I read a lot in the DGA [Directors Guild of America] book, magazine, about, do you rehearse? Do you not rehearse? Some people said yes, some people said no. Well I asked myself the question, there's some Actors who need rehearsal, who want rehearsal. Now what do you do in the scene with the same guy who doesn't want to rehearse? And that makes little sense to me. Of course, since my whole background is theatre, and rehearsal is precious, lovely life--I love rehearsal period--and I think they're useful. And I think they're useful not just for the Actors themselves, but for the crew as well. Which of us has not adjusted a light after rehearsal? Or the man with the dolly who wants to know at what speed they're going to move? So I think there's--I need to rehearse. And I've rarely, rarely, I don't think I've met any Actors that I don't want to rehearse. So maybe I was lucky that way.

INT: After you--did you ever, after an evening shoot, did you look at dailies? [JD: Yes.] And were you normally satisfied? Or were there things that you said, “Oh,” they didn't come out quite the way you wanted?
JD: I'll tell you how I knew I would be satisfied. I always felt it was right to invite the whole crew to see the rushes 'cause they worked as well as anybody else. And I tell you, these are all my friends. We worked on many films. And one of them had a little dog. And there was a little table in front of the first row of seats, and the dog would rush and take place, and watch. When he turned away, I said, “Oh, that's no good.” That dog was my--my barometer. Yes, but I watched rushes, yes. And I invite everybody to come and watch. [INT: Does this dog have any descendents?] Sorry? [INT: Does the dog have any descendents?] I lost track of him. He would really jump and take that place and fix his eyes on the screen.

INT: There are so many technical questions, but you're a technical guy, right?
JD: God, no. [INT: No?] I don't even know how to spell it. [INT: It's sort of Greek in spelling. Well, how do you work with Actors?] Look, you can't say I work with Actors. I worked with this Actor or that Actor. The generality is that my first job is to make them understand that I am confident. That I trust them. And I like them. And that is very important to the Actor. We talk and not too much. I learned very early never to say anything that is intellectual. I never talk about the Actor's sub-conscious. We talk a little, but I try to stimulate them, but really make them feel that I know it's going to go well, now in vague, short words. That's about--talk with Actors because from theatre, we sit around a table and talk, and look, and search, and it's such a lovely--it's a luxury time, rehearsal in the theatre. You don't have that time in movies, of course. I've read lately, last years, that some Directors manage to get a week or ten days of rehearsal, which is wonderful. Those who want it. But my rehearsals would be just before we shoot, 'cause we never had that kind of liberty or money.

INT: How do you get an Actor immersed in a role that's shot in fragments? I can never understand this.
JD: You know, I can't either. I can't either. And that's part of the reason I respect them so much. They start on page eight and then go to 90 and then go back to four, and the thinking Actor tries to remember, “Now what have I done before this?” Or, “What will I do before this?” And I keep--I try to help them there, but they're amazing people. They can do it, as we see.

INT: Okay, let's go to the filmmaking part. It's all filmmaking, but the shooting and the editing. You don't use--you never use storyboards, or what do they call it? Shot list? You must have had some kind of breakdown.
JD: I do, and I come in the morning, I know what I will do with the first two or three shots, then evolve from there. But I never did--it's wrong, I believe, very wrong of me, and very naughty, but I needed to improvise a lot. [INT: But your films are beautiful, visually. Starting--especially starting with the Hellinger [Mark Hellinger] pictures. They're all beautiful, visually.] I've had wonderful people to work with. [INT: But they could--there is some sort of Dassin style, I'm sure, you know. RIFIFI [DU RIFIFI CHEZ LE HOMMES] couldn't have just been done--you had a great production. How do you achieve that?] It starts with lunch with the guy who's going to do it, and they're saying, “You know what I see?” And I rarely say much after that. I stick around, I watch, sometimes I do a little thing like this [moves hand], but rarely--I've just had very good people. [INT: But you compose the shots yourself? And the blocking?] Yes. [INT: Well they're all beautiful.] Thank you. [INT: Well it's true. There is a similarity in style from one film to another without the same Production Designer. Your film noir style.] My film noir style.

INT: What about camera styles? Different--is it different working with different Cinematographers? You worked with Billy Daniels [William H. Daniels] and--Billy. I'm calling him Billy. I didn't even know him.
JD: Bill [William H. Daniels]. [INT: Bill. Jacques Natteau, your French--] The same way, the same way. I tell them what I see and maybe once or twice I would change or ask him to change very diplomatically, but from the beginning, there is a general agreement and in the working on the set, there was very little--very few misunderstandings. If not, they were very quickly, in the most friendly manner, fixed. And they had my trust. And I've had wonderful, wonderful guys.

INT: You preferred working in black and white?
JD: Yes. I wish I could have gone on forever with black and white. I loved it. The first color film I made was after many years of work in movies. That was TOPKAPI in 1968. My first color film. [INT: Earlier.] Sorry? [INT: '64 [1964], I think.] My god, of course it was when Kennedy [John F. Kennedy] was killed. [INT: That's right.] Yes, it was '63 [1963]. [INT: What happened with--you were working when you heard Kennedy's [John F. Kennedy] assassination?] We had just come back from Turkey. We had a few shots in the studio, and my son, who played in the film, rushed in. We were--we had finished working. We were just fooling around in Ustinov's [Peter Ustinov] dressing room, and Joe [Joseph Dassin] came running in and saying, “They killed Kennedy.” Well you can imagine what happened. It was a terrible shock. [INT: And you shut down?] Yes, I did. I said, “We will not work tomorrow.” But, I did the same thing after Pearl Harbor and I was screamed at. I said, “We don't work tomorrow.” So I had two of those. And in '68 [1968], the year I abuse now, the other Kennedy [Robert Kennedy] was shot. And Martin Luther King [Martin Luther King, Jr.] was shot, and I filmed his funeral. So I've lived through all these assassinations during film time. Each one, great shocks. [INT: You knew King [Martin Luther King, Jr.], also.] Yes. First time I met him was in Paris. And we had some very interesting and pleasant times with him. He was a lot with Andrew Young and Harry Belafonte. And we had very rich evenings. He's a bright guy.

INT: We have to go back to films. What has your relationship been with Producers?
 JD: Well it was so interesting that during that MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer] time I would barely see them. I didn't know what they were doing. And I remember one guy, very nice man, when we went to London to shoot NIGHT AND THE CITY, he came over. We flew, and we spent all the time playing cards in the airplane. And I never remember his saying good-bye to go back, and then we never saw him again until--I didn't see him again until after the film was finished and cut! But I do remember Mayer's [Louis B. Mayer] warning to the whole group, saying, “Now listen. You respect the Producer because he's the buffer between me and the Director.” So maybe that was his job; he was a buffer. Though I do know that there were some very talented and productive Producers. But not many. [INT: Even at MGM?] Walter Wanger, I think, was at MGM. I respected him. I never worked with him. I think maybe at MGM was Pandro Berman [Pandro S. Berman], was a creative Producer. There were a few, but not many. [INT: In your way of producing, we know about Hellinger [Mark Hellinger].] Well after Hellinger...What did I do after Hellinger? [INT: Zanuck [Darryl Zanuck]?] I did one film and--yes, oh, of course. Yes. The Producer. The Producer's Producer. Darryl Zanuck. I made a film for him on a script by Buzz--Bezzerides [A.I. Bezzerides]. I forget his name. He's a friend. [INT: A.I. Bezzerides.] Buzz, I call him. Called THIEVES' HIGHWAY. And that was my first meeting with Zanuck [Darryl Zanuck]. And he was a really hands-on, feet-on, ass-on. He was really controlling the films he made. Sometimes helpful, sometimes just making compromises to please the audience that he think needed this pleasing. Sometimes wrong. But he was tireless. He worked day and night. And I will say to you what I said to a group at the Museum of Modern Art not so long ago. I said, “I am old enough to say just what I think, and I want you to know that I liked Darryl Zanuck.” And I did. He was not very popular. But I found things in him--I used to say to him, “Your ambition is to be a nice guy, but you can't make it.” Well this touches a blacklist thing. I didn't want to talk about, but in 1940--early '49 [1949], I think it was. I said, “Darryl [Darryl Zanuck], you hate this blacklist, don't you?” And he said, “Yes I do.” And I said, “You wanna break it?” He said, “Yes, I do.” I said, “I have a book. I'd like you to buy it, but I warn you, it's written by Albert Maltz who was one of the favorite guys to be punished. And John Huston wants to write the screenplay. Walter Huston wants to act in it. Will you buy it and let me do it?” And he said, “Yes. But it must be kept secret.” I said, “How do we keep it a secret?” He said, “Well look. Most of this is on location.” It's the story of a man, to be played by Walter [Walter Huston], having problem--arthritis. And the whole film are his adventures on the way to Los Angeles to see a doctor. So he said, “You can shoot all of this away from the studio, keep it quiet. Nobody will learn until it's too late.” I thought it was very, very worthy of him. But he said, “Not a word of publicity.” But I had to call Albert Maltz and tell him, “Look, I got some money for selling the book.” He was delighted. “But, Albert, there's a condition. Not a word.” Albert could not restrain himself and in the next day in the Hollywood Reporter was, “Blacklist Broken!” And Albert Maltz gave the story and that was the end of the film, and they gave Zanuck [Darryl Zanuck] a hard time, a stink, and all of them, and he did something quite wonderful. He came to my house at night. Nobody goes. Zanuck [Darryl Zanuck] goes to nobody's house, but he came to my house and said, “Take this, get on a plane to London right away, 'cause this is the last picture you're ever going to make. And start with the most expensive scenes so once you're in it, they will let you finish it.” And I had other reasons to like him. He did some things that were very human and very touching, but not many people really knew him.